<p>Nicole Astra:<br />Welcome to Talking Cities Aurora. I'm Nicole Astra. My guest today, Norma Peterson, is executive director of Document the Abuse and an East High tomcat. Welcome to the show.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Thank you.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />So let's start with your history in Aurora. We're a local show. You are advocating for people in Aurora and networking throughout the country, but what about your roots?<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Oh, I love that I come from Aurora. Growing up here, my parents moved here when we were very young, so I've known this city my whole life, spent my teenage years running around here in downtown Aurora. And I've got to say, watching it change the way that it has, especially moreso in the last 10 to 15 years has really warmed my heart because I saw it when I was younger, and then I saw it kind of go by the wayside and now to see the reinvestment and the community.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />It's vibrant. Yeah.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Oh, I love it. Absolutely.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />So we have a lot of mutual friends, so we kind out in the same circles. I see at First Fridays and chiming in on Good Morning Aurora. So we do have a lot of the same people. I know you make the rounds, and again, are just such a great voice and a friendly voice in the community. So let's talk about Document the Abuse and what that is.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Okay. So Document the Abuse houses what's called the evidentiary abuse affidavit. And what that is is a resource that allows victims of domestic violence, stalking, sexual harassment. Wherever there is a potential for violence in a relationship, it allows victims and survivors to be able to document what is going on with them. So it's a way for them to be able to assemble all of their various facts and evidences to what's going on with them.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />So a lot of times it's very difficult for someone to remember things from incident to incident, and as we're well aware of what statistics tell us is an average of seven to nine times for someone to leave. So in writing these instances down as they progress, it gives you the wherewithal to be able to go back to look at what is happening with you, and we store it on your behalf so that you can use it in a meaningful way. So should you have to navigate the legal system, should you be in counseling, should you have the need for it, it's there at your disposal, and it's a free resource.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />And I want to talk a little bit more detail about it because we often with advocacy talk about what is the first step, or what can we do? This is a very passive way that someone in this situation can take a first step. Right?<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right. It's like a digital diary.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />And it's private.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Can be done on your phone, can be done on a computer, password protected.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Correct. So with just a username and a password, you can create an account on there to be able to write everything down. Basically, what we're asking you to do is to put your information, both physically who you are, what you look like, what is the status of your relationship with this person, putting down information about the abuser themselves, again, able to upload pictures and other things that corroborate these things.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />And then also being able to talk about the abuse itself. Sometimes it's difficult to tell someone else.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Absolutely.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Because of that shame and blame that's so often a part of that quotient. So what it does is, whether I can't tell my friends, or I don't feel like I can tell my family because I don't want to put them in danger, or I don't want to admit that this is what's going on with me, or giving you a platform that just with access to internet, you're going to be able to talk about what's going on and gives you a place that you can feel safe, non-judgmental in terms of what you're putting down. And it gives you a chance to kind of look to see what's going on with you. So hopefully, in putting these incidents down, you're starting to realize the collective of what you're dealing with.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Seeing that pattern.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right. And then maybe, hopefully, in seeing the resources that are available, it gives you the impetus then to want to change that outcome that you see that may be happening.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Is that some of the feedback you receive, the overwhelming majority as women, but I want to make sure we include men too, but is that some of the feedback you receive? Once I started, I saw the history, I saw the collection, and then saw the situation differently.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right. So when we first started Document the Abuse, it was kind of like, okay, we're not quite sure. It's a digital diary. It's free. It's a way to talk about it. We weren't sure quite what the response would be. But in the last few years, as I took on executive director role about two years ago and made this my full-time passion, that we have slowly seen the recognition and awareness come. But also we've seen literally hundreds of these being filled out.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Best case scenario, really success would be is if it never had to be filled out. That would be the real success in terms of society. But success for me is knowing that there are people out there that feel either safer or feel like they can tell their story somewhere, and it's adding value to them.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />It's a shift of power.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />And that right there-<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Yeah. Shift of power.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Yes. Let's give the victims back, the survivors back their power and control where it belongs.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />And it's not just a diary because you guys do partner with people across the country. You have training sessions. So tell me a little bit more about that. And by way of, we are trying to eliminate this, not just providing resources.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right. yeah. With the training, what we're doing is we're teaching those in the environments that a victim is going to navigate with this evidentiary abuse affidavit and with the information that is contained in it. And now what we're doing is we're training law enforcement. So if they, someone says, I have an EAA, they know what it is. They can then also, in training, be able to use it as a part of their protocol when they go out on a domestic violence call.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Yes. Encourage them to use an-<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right. So we have cards, QR cards, that can very easily be given to a victim and be inconspicuous. They could put it in their sock. They could put it in their back pocket. They could take a picture of it even. So a lot of times the police officer will pull that victim aside. They could even take a picture of it then. And it would take them directly to the website.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />With the judicial system, I am currently working with both Kane County State's Attorney, Jamie Mosser, and Dupage State's Attorney, Bob Berlin, in incorporating it into recognition on their part. So when it comes in, and someone goes to a state's attorney and decides, okay, I'm at the point now where I want to press charges. I've got an EAA that I've got all my information in. So when you are there to speak on your own behalf, you use it as a way to contain all of your information so you can give a cohesive and comprehensive look at what your situation is. So you're there to speak on your own behalf. So it goes again more to the side of prevention.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />If you are not there to speak on your behalf, your family would then be able to, or whoever you trusted to give a copy to can then go forward and say on your behalf to this state's attorney, to this detective, here's what was going on. Here's your EAA. Here's where you're going to find all of this.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />So now what you're doing is we're training these different environments, counselors, advocates. I mean, there isn't an environment that a victim or survivor doesn't navigate that this couldn't be helpful in.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />And people think of first responders as responding to tragedies, to emergencies, but it's really any of those contact touch points.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Those are responders teachers... Right.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Exactly. Teachers, hospital workers, nurses, doctors' offices.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Yes.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />I mean, we're even now navigating the workplace violence prevention. Now what you can do is we are adding just a little checkbox that says, this is for me, or this is for someone else. Now let's say you are at work, and you're observing some kind of an incidence going on with a coworker. They've never told you, but you've seen them come in with a black eye. When they get a phone call from their other half, they're very nervous.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Sure.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />They're being stalked in the parking lot. These are things you're observing. So even you can write these things down on someone's behalf. And let's say something happens to that person. You would then be able to bring these facts forward in a format that then will work on their behalf. We've actually had people contact us to tell us that's exactly what went on is that in essence they used Document the Abuse in a way that then went to serve that victim.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />So even in a workplace situation, because it truly does work in any environment that you don't feel safe in, so regardless of what the situation is, it was meant more for intimate partner violence, domestic violence. But what we found is the applications are innumerable is actually what it is. Anyway-<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />That's why we got to keep getting the word out about it.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />So you can go, instead of shoulda, woulda, coulda, I should have done something. I would've if I would've known better. I could've helped her. And you can now take it to, I can, I will, and I am. We're changing that trajectory with this resource.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />So Norma, you have said that part of your motivation for this was because your own loved ones did not get to speak on their behalf. So your husband, Paul, is Drew Peterson's brother. And as the world knows, currently serving 38 years in jail, murder conviction. And you knew Kathleen Savio very well.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Yes, I did. Yes, I did.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Can we talk about that?<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Yeah. I mean, it's an unusual situation when you have someone go missing in your family to begin with. And on October 28th, 2007, Stacy went missing. So when Drew's fourth wife, Stacy, went missing, they then, in looking at Drew and everything around him-<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />And the history that at the time was not seen-<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Even readily apparent. Even though Kathy did everything she could to make everyone aware of what was going on with her, it was never done in a context that could truly help her. So when Stacy went missing, and they went back and started looking at Drew's third wife dying in an accident at 40 years old in a bathtub, it was kind of looked at, okay, we need to take another look at this.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />So when they did, they found numerous police reports. They found hospital reports. They found she had written a letter to the assistant state's attorney at Will County to no avail. She had told numerous family and friends. I am not going to make it out of this divorce alive. She had told his... She had been written a letter about the affair that he was having with his fourth wife before he married her, someone that was 30 years younger than him.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />So she had had what is basically now the evidentiary abuse affidavit that, had it been put in a collective, would've served Kathleen. Kathleen's family would've come forward. I mean, we worked together. We knew that they had a volatile relationship, but from what we had seen, we didn't realize the breadth nor the scope.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />It could have been taken that far.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Right.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Narcissists tend to do is to sugarcoat their own behaviors. Oh, she's this, she's that. So we only saw the part that he wanted us to see and putting it in the context that best served him, as it does with a lot of abusers and/or narcissistic behavior people is they're going to put their spin on it. So that's why we didn't realize all the things that were going on. And they were in the middle of a divorce. We were trying to stay as far away from that as possible. So we, when Kathleen died, we really didn't know the circumstances other than what Drew had told us.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Did you suspect then that he could have been involved?<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />You think only Drew, only Drew, would've gone through such a contentious divorce only to have his wife suddenly die and everything go to him. Only that could happen to him. So in the back of your mind you think either he has got to have the best luck in the world, but you don't think someone can go to those lengths. I mean, you know them. I mean, he had-<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />And you know them intimately. They're your family.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Yeah.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />He had children with her. Right.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right. So, and like I said, this is my husband's brother. I mean, I had spent Christmases. I mean, it's not like someone of his nature is a dastardly person 24/7. That's what allows them to get away with the things that they get away with, because they're able to mimic the people that they are around, because then it makes them normal. I'm able to mimic whatever the relationships are around me. And that's how they work. So you think, okay, yes, I know you're capable of some volatility. Yes, I know that I've heard some things about you. But you don't think that they would go to that extreme.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />And it's not what you see.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right. But when Stacy went missing-<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Stacy had no reservations going into a relationship with Drew.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Stacy had no idea what she was getting into. She was a child. She was 17 years old.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Yeah.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />What experience could she have possibly had that would've prepared her for him? We did our best to protect her. And he knew that. He knew that we would do that. And I had had conversations with him that told him, look, you guys get divorced. We're keeping her, and you get to visit every other weekend. That kind of thing.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />But it wasn't... She like a niece to me. She was the same age as my nieces. So I felt very protective of her. So we did the best that we could. But Drew's Drew. You can't control Drew. No one could couldn't control Drew. You could tell him, but you knew it wasn't going to get very far.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Do you have contact with him now?<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />No.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />No.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />No. I imagine he's not real happy with me.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />And our audience might know that, even recently, he is appealing the murder conviction. What do you make of that?<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Going back to that whole thing about he's always come out of situations. And so it would never surprise me if just some kind of an anomaly came about, like why is he even going through this now? Well, some judge found some minute portion of the law that he thought this might have some relativity.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Make something invalid. Yep.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right. There may be something in it. Only Drew. How in the hell can that happen? So we're going through it and it's difficult to see him continue to deny any kind of responsibility because I believe that everybody pretty much knows that we're not going to see Stacy come walk through the door again. So it's difficult, but by the same token, it's like, you know what? Every time you go out there, it gives me a chance to go out there and talk about the work that I'm doing so that if we're going to have this, at least it's a flip side that if we're going to have something of this negative nature where I've got to listen to this, at least now it gives me a chance to go out and put a positive spin on this.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />And we need that fire in your belly. So thank you on behalf of many, many people.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Thank you.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />For sure. What about the conflict? How do you reconcile? Maybe you could speak for Paul at this, but how do you reconcile loving someone, the intimacy that siblings experience. Nobody understands your life better than your siblings, right?<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />But then to be at such odds with their behavior. How do you reconcile that as family?<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />The way that Paul... I mean, it took him a while to kind of wrap his head around it. Because like you said, I mean, this is the guy that he grew up with. This is the guy that took him to the pond. This is the guy that took him out and did different things with him. I mean, this older brother. So like you say, growing up, it's not like he was out killing small animals and acting in ways that were adverse to normal society. He was just your same obnoxious, older brother that everybody's got. So it wasn't that there was any kind of triggers there.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />And in working together, we saw some parts of Drew that gave us pause. So he knew that his brother wasn't always a good individual, and he understands that he's in the place he needs to be. And he will tell you that. He's where he should be for what he's done. But does that mean that his love for his brother has ended? No.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Of course not.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />No. I mean, it's always going to be his brother. Has he reconciled the fact that his brother has done what he's done? Yes, he has. So he's come to grips, but it's been 14 years. It's been 14 years.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Well, and the heartache for situations like this certainly never goes away, but you can use it to help other people so no one else experiences that same heartache.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Right. And that's what drives me to do what I do. I mean, everything was, it just seemed like serendipity, shall we say, that I would meet the person who created this wonderful resource and that I would get to work with her. And her name was Susan Murphy-Milano. And she actually passed five years to the day that my sister-in-law went missing. So it's like, okay, there are so many things that, like I said, God winks, if you will. I like it.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />You've said you either are someone who's being abused, you know someone who's being abused, or you have the power to help someone who's being abused. So how can they get involved with Document the Abuse?<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />So like you said, I mean, statistics are what they are. So even bringing awareness, telling someone, having a conversation is one way of, because as we know, as you do that old telephone, for each person, it goes out exponentially. So every time you can share this information, look it up, document the abuse, the evidentiary abuse affidavit. We did a Dateline NBC back at Thanksgiving. So look up our information there. So we're available. And that resource is on there and available for anyone that wants to tell their story, to put their histories together. It's important. You don't know what you do isn't going to help someone else or to prevent someone else from having to go through both what Stacy went through and Kathleen went through. So just looking up the information, spreading the awareness of it out there, even if it's just in conversation and having it, because you never know who's listening. You don't know who you're helping. So if you're telling someone about it, and someone else just happens to be passing by, you don't know that that information you're discussing isn't going to affect that person.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />Yeah. And you never know what's going on behind closed doors. Again, I love that this can be a passive first step for people.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />It's a great way for if your family members are going through it, or you don't know how to open a conversation, here, just go check this out, something I just want to show you know. If you're in law enforcement, if you're in the judicial system, if you're advocates, if you want to get together, collaborate for resources, we're doing a lot of collaboration here in Aurora. I work with Good Morning Aurora, just had our first art exhibit. We're going to be doing a health event with another 501(c)(3), DVSA Communities, that does a lot of work with the Hispanic community. So we're trying to do our outreach because we're going to be putting this in different languages. So it'll be available in both English and Spanish. And Polish is another big language out here so we're going to be adding different languages. Everything is a work in progress. So we're looking at creating bigger, better and safer ways for people to communicate. And again, it's a free resource. You don't have to worry about it.<br /><br />Nicole Astra:<br />And we're going to help you get that word out, and we'll make sure to put links to your upcoming appearances and events and partnerships on the website as well. But thank you so much for joining us on Talking Cities and for the work you're doing.<br /><br />Norma Peterson:<br />Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.</p>